Interview: Jonathan Koch
2011 Hanyo Award Recipient
Interviewed by Paul Holloway, November 1, 2011
HOLLOWAY: Good morning, my name is Paul Holloway, and I’m a member of the AVS History Committee. Today is Tuesday November 1, 2011. We’re at the 58th International Symposium of the AVS in Nashville, Tennessee. Today I have the privilege and pleasure of interviewing Mr. Jonathan Koch from NIST in Boulder, Colorado, who is the 2011 Hanyo Award winner. His citation reads, “For the creative and technical ingenuity in vacuum sciences that has supported over 18 years of innovation at the National Institute of Standards and Technology.” So Jonathan, congratulations on the Hanyo Award.
KOCH: Thank you.
HOLLOWAY: So to begin this interview, how about giving us your birth date and birth place.
KOCH: I was born in Edmore, Michigan June 3, 1954.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. And what about your education?
KOCH: I went to school in Edmore; I graduated from high school in Edmore. I went to Michigan State University after high school graduation for two years, and then I dropped out and I moved to Colorado with a friend of mine who I got to know in East Lansing, Michigan, where Michigan State University is. And then I became an auto mechanic because I needed a job, and I did that for quite some time. And then I decided to go back to school, so I studied at Metro State College and University of Colorado at Denver for a little bit, and then I decided to transfer to the Colorado School of Mines, where I finished my Bachelors of Science degree in Engineering Physics. During my pursuit of a degree from Colorado School of Mines I started working at NIST in the summer and such, and that’s where I got my acquaintance with NIST, and then I continued there after I graduated with my Bachelors of Science degree.
HOLLOWAY: So what year did you join NIST?
KOCH: I worked there as a physical science trainee back in 1990, but then I had a little catastrophe that also delayed the completion of my degree plus my ability to be hired by NIST. I had a bad bicycle accident.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, sorry to hear that. [Yes.] So you joined them in what year?
KOCH: My official…I’d have to look at my papers. I would say, I think it’s 1992.
HOLLOWAY: So you’ve been there for a few years now. [Yes.] And what division do you work in at NIST?
KOCH: Well, that’s been changing. I used to work for the EEE Laboratory for NIST in a division, and now that merged with another laboratory. There have been some transitions, changes there, and so now I work for a division called…oh boy, it’s a new name, I can’t even recall. We just got changed probably two or three weeks ago at the beginning of October because that’s when the fiscal year starts for the government.
HOLLOWAY: So they have to change everything on the fiscal year [chuckles].
KOCH: Yeah, yeah. Quantum Devices is what it was called.
HOLLOWAY: Now it’s called something else. [Yeah.] So you work in a clean room facility there?
KOCH: Yes, we have a microcircuit fabrication facility. We specialized in making microcircuit superconducting devices.
HOLLOWAY: How many people are active at NIST in Boulder, would you guestimate?
KOCH: That’s a hard point for me to guess. I guess I should have…yeah.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. So tell me how you got interested in the activities that you specialize in at NIST.
KOCH: Well, when I was going to school at the Colorado School of Mines, my brother, who is a physicist at Yorktown Heights at the T. J. Watson Research Center, knew some people up in the cryoelectronics area at NIST in Boulder. I was looking for a summer job, and he said, “Well, you could go up and ask these folks.” So I went up there, and sure enough they needed help. They’d just had a fire in their cleanroom…
HOLLOWAY: Oh boy.
KOCH: …back in 1989-’90, right in the holidays between 1989 and ’90, so they were in the process of rebuilding their cleanroom and reinstalling their vacuum systems in the cleanroom and such. So I got a summer job there in 1990. I started helping them move vacuum systems into the cleanroom and got involved with a few different vacuum systems, working with them and learning how they work and how to get them operational and such. The people that I worked with, I got along with them very well. They were like mentors to me. They would show me how to do things as I looked on. Of course I studied a lot on my own also in my off hours back in Golden where I lived, where the School of Mines is.
HOLLOWAY: So are there particular names of persons that were…?
KOCH: Yeah. The person that I worked directly under was Don McDonald, and then also a gentleman named Joe Sauvageau. Those are the people I interfaced with. We were building a vacuum system to make these devices that they were trying to fabricate to measure that are very sensitive to radiation using a Wheatstone bridge design for superconducting electronics.
HOLLOWAY: So what sort of vacuum were you trying to achieve? 10–6 Torr?
KOCH: Oh, I’d say 10–7, 10–8 just to do sputtering deposition. They wanted to use a niobium tantalum alloy to get the transition edge to transition temperature to, now what did they want? I forget; it’s been a long time ago. Maybe to 8, 9 kelvin? I’m not really sure.
HOLLOWAY: It’s a low temperature superconductor, so it had to be in that neighborhood.
KOCH: Yeah, it’s a very low temperature superconductor, right. But they wanted to change it. They wanted to raise temperature up from the niobium’s transition temperature.
HOLLOWAY: So you were doing sputter deposition of thin films?
KOCH: I would say more or less yes, I started doing that right after we had to build a vacuum system to do this specialized alloy sputtering
HOLLOWAY: What type of pumps were you using?
KOCH: We were using diffusion pumps.
HOLLOWAY: Oil diffusion pumps?
KOCH: Right, correct.
HOLLOWAY: So pretty classical thin film deposition work, then?
KOCH: Right. We would also this thing called a carousel where we could do four wafers at once in a vacuum run. We didn’t have a load lock on the vacuum system I was working on, but we’d have this rotatable carousel that you could place your substrate over the sputter guy you wanted to deposit on, and then move it to another position and you could do another deposition on it with another material, or you could move it over a Kaufman type ion mill do some cleaning pre-sputter and such.
HOLLOWAY: So this was magnetron sputtering?
KOCH: Correct, DC magnetron sputtering.
HOLLOWAY: And what thickness of films were you depositing?
KOCH: Let’s see, I would say the 800, 900 angstrom range or so, yeah.
HOLLOWAY: This was used for Johnson noise devices as well as transition edge devices?
KOCH: No, it wasn’t used for transition edge. They were trying to build these Wheatstone bridges where you’d have one half of your bridge be superconducting and your other half absorb radiation, and then you’d measure the change in resistance, and you would measure that with a SQUID again to measure the change in resistance and how much energy was absorbed by one half of the bridge.
HOLLOWAY: So microcalorimetry is what you’re describing, I guess?
KOCH: Hmm, yes.
HOLLOWAY: Your bio says that you’ve looked at x-ray and gamma ray spectrometers as well.
KOCH: Well basically then I took a break because of my injury. I had a severe brain injury and I was in a rehabilitation hospital for four months recovering from that.
HOLLOWAY: Wow. We’re glad to see you…
KOCH: In their mind and in the physician’s mind at Craig I had an amazing recovery considering how badly my brain was injured. Well actually my body was injured pretty badly too; I have a bunch of metal in me. But anyway, so then I had to finish my degree at Colorado School of Mines. I was wanting to go and get a doctorate degree and continue on, but due to my brain injury I realized that would have been a big struggle, and also due to financial issues, too, because hospital care is not cheap [laughs].
HOLLOWAY: It certainly isn’t cheap!
KOCH: So that kind of put a hold on that one. But anyway, luckily NIST liked my work and such and they wanted to continue using me as a resource, so I worked there after my injury, I volunteered. My car insurance, amazingly enough, paid me to work there because I was considered a vehicle on a bicycle. So I worked there for a year or so, and then I went back to college, I finished my degree. I had to work with the Colorado School of Mines. The person that was really helpful for me continuing and finishing my degree was the professor that was head of the Physics Department at the School of Mines, John Trefny . He was very supportive and such to make sure I got through, so he was a big plus. So I got my degree in Engineering Physics, and then NIST hired me and I’ve been there since.
HOLLOWAY So you went into the Electromagnetic Technology Division to begin with. Is that still where you’re at?
KOCH: Well no, that’s changed. That’s merged with the Time and Frequency Division in what I think is called the Physics Laboratory. We merged with the Physics Laboratory to make a new laboratory.
HOLLOWAY: I see. So you’re in charge of the cleanroom facility?
KOCH: No I’m not in charge of the cleanroom facility. I’m one of the people that are involved in keeping it operational, making sure vacuum systems work correctly and such to also the infrastructure, the air, the temperature, the humidity.
HOLLOWAY: Do you actually have vacuum pumps in bays external to the cleanroom facility and you make sure…?
KOCH: Yeah, we make sure those are running correctly, like vane pumps and scroll pumps and such, to back up turbos, or cryo pumps, or pump down chambers and such. We have a type of equipment. We have many different vacuum systems. One of the hard parts about our facility is we have an array of different vacuum systems made by different companies that have different types of software code to run them. That’s one of the more difficult parts these days is figuring out how to keep the systems running correctly when they have different operating systems on the computers and such. Then we have a lot of older systems too that we’ve hand-built that are much simpler to run, so those I more or less keep in line and keep them working correctly.
HOLLOWAY: Now you have to have a range of vacuums in your systems, some 10–6 for sputter deposition to 10–10, I would presume, for atomic clocks?
KOCH: Well no, we really don’t do any ultra-high vacuum stuff.
HOLLOWAY: Is that right?
KOCH: Correct, yeah we don’t.
HOLLOWAY: But you do dry pumping as well as wet pumping with oil pumps versus…?
KOCH: Correct. Yeah, a lot of it is just a matter of what when you re-gen your cryo pump or back up your-- Well, back up your turbo you used to use a wet type pump in our situation, and sometimes we’d use blowers and such. But in the cryo pump situation, there’s pumping on the chamber. Lately we’ve been getting scroll pumps and such, the non-oil type pumps.
HOLLOWAY: So you’re switching from wet pumping to dry pumping as a general statement?
KOCH: Yeah, yeah.
HOLLOWAY: Is there a reason for that?
KOCH: Oh, I’m not really sure. I think it depends what…Like we buy a system from Kurt Lesker or something like that, it may come with scroll pumps. You buy a system from another company, it may come with dry type pumps, these Alcatel dry pumps. It depends what the manufacturer you buy the system from supplies you with. You know, there are pros and cons about both pumps, scrolls and vanes. The vanes on one hand are very reliable; you know, we just keep oil in them and such and change it as need be and they’ll go for ever and ever. But of course you have leakage problems on oil pumps too, so you’ve got to make sure oil doesn’t get all over everything. Then you more or less you have back-streaming and you have to worry about back-streaming of oil, as you do about back-streaming of particles on scroll pumps. So there are just all these things you’ve got to weigh out and cope with when problems develop.
HOLLOWAY: So what fraction of your vacuum systems are dry systems versus wet systems?
KOCH: That would be a tough question to answer. I would have to look at each system and make a chart. We have many vacuum systems.
HOLLOWAY: What would you guess? 10 or 100?
KOCH: Oh, I would say we have more oil-backed pumps than dry-backed pumps.
HOLLOWAY: And what order of magnitude, is it 10 or is it 100 vacuum systems?
KOCH: Oh, we probably have I would say 25 to 30 vacuum systems.
HOLLOWAY: Yeah, that’s a lot of systems to keep track of and keep up and operating.
KOCH: Yeah, mm-hmm [yes]. And it’s nice. One of the nice things about my job is the team I work with, we get along very well and such. So when we have problems with vacuum systems, we have a good resource base where we know who to talk to. I can work with the other staff people to get problems solved and sorted out. You know, some people become more expert on some systems and other people become more expert on other systems, so that part, we work together very well.
HOLLOWAY: So how many are on your team?
KOCH: Probably the cleanroom team is probably six.
HOLLOWAY: Would you like to mention some of the names?
KOCH: Well yeah, sure. The people I work with are Jim Beall, who actually has been with NIST for longer with me and he has been very interactive with cleanroom construction and infrastructure and such, and then also within the vacuum systems and developing processes to meet some of the projects that we got affiliated for. Gene Hilton. Paul Dresselhaus. Norm Bergen, who is a new person we just got recently, but he is more of a tech guy who makes sure we have supplies and materials on hand, like cleanroom wipes or solvents or photo resist or different materials we need to fabricate devices; Maggie Crews, who is our safety officer. The guy who oversees us, who is my supervisor, is Dave Rudman.
HOLLOWAY: So do you fabricate quantum interference devices in this facility?
KOCH: Yes we do.
HOLLOWAY: What’s involved with doing that?
KOCH: Basically we have to get wafers. Well, it depends what devices you make. One of the things at a research fab, there are a lot of different materials, like even wafers. Normally we use silicon wafers, and then we’ll deposit an oxide on them. We have tube furnaces for depositing oxide on them, so that’s another we have are tube furnaces. But sometimes people use sapphire wafers or quartz wafers to make their devices, since like I said, we are a research facility. Then basically we’ll take the substrate and then we’ll deposit it. Like let’s say we’re making a transition edge thermometer or something like that, we’ll deposit a layer of—well first we’ll put a line. We have an ASML stepper that we’ll put pre-alignment marks on, such where you can always line the different lithography layers on top of each other correctly. And then we’ll deposit aluminum oxide niobium to make the Josephson junctions for the squids, or if we’re making voltage standards we’ll do a…I don't know what they’re using now actually. They use niobium SNS junctions where they’ll use a normal metal for the junction and the superconducting metal of niobium. I’m not sure what they’re using for their junction material. But anyway, so then you’ll deposit, like for instance for the transition edge thermometers, the niobium/aluminum oxide/niobium in a sputter system, and then you’ll just continue working with that. You’ll pattern the niobium/aluminum/niobium, and then you etch it appropriately and such. Then you build your wiring and resisters and such on top of that using other vacuum systems.
HOLLOWAY: Most of the superconducting materials you’ve mentioned have been low-temperature metallics.
KOCH: Yeah, we used to work with high-temperature superconducting materials, but we don’t anymore.
HOLLOWAY: But you at one time were putting down thin films of high TC material?
KOCH: I was not involved with that, but yes we were. We were using pulse laser deposition.
HOLLOWAY: It must be interesting to contrast your job you’re doing now as a technician in a Class 100 cleanroom with an auto mechanic.
KOCH: Well one of the things I think my forte was, the reason why my group hired me at NIST, is because I’m always real good at fixing things. You know, in that respect it’s the same as being an auto mechanic. It’s like a car comes in and has a weird problem, you’ve got to interface with all the different things involved, whether it’s an engine, an electronic ignition or the fuel injection or whatever, you’ve got to learn how to go in there, dig in it, figure out what’s going on and fix it. And that’s the same way with a vacuum system. And I did have a real understanding of electronics and such, so if we have a sputter gun problem or something like that—Well, like with an engine we have to deal with vacuum seals and stuff, we have to deal with machining this, machining that, like you did with an automobile. So I had a lot of good background on how to fix equipment by fixing cars. And so to fix vacuum systems is basically the same type of forte. That worked out real well.
HOLLOWAY: So you’re really good with your hands, then.
KOCH: Yeah, I was real good with my hands. And I’m real good even with electronics and stuff, figuring out plasmas and that type of stuff, I feel real comfortable, whether it’s doing RF sputtering or ion beam, the Kaufman ion mills and such, that just came real naturally. Plus the fact that I work with a good group of people who are willing to invest the time—when I would have a question, they would answer it for me.
HOLLOWAY: So your experience gave you a good edge, then, in terms of participating. Where did you learn your electronics?
KOCH: Well, I learned my electronics just on my own back as an auto mechanic. You know, I just studied that. That was just basic. Then also when I went to college, I did take electronic courses, learning basically digital and analogue circuitry.
HOLLOWAY: Wow, so you picked that up by yourself. That’s remarkable.
KOCH: Yeah, well it’s really not…you know, yeah.
HOLLOWAY: It’s remarkable. Most people who pick it up understand analogue better than they understand digital. Do you understand both, though?
KOCH: Yeah, I understand both, right.
HOLLOWAY: Where do you see us going in the future?
KOCH: Let’s see. Well one of the things that is going on now is we’re having a new microcircuit fabrication facility built for us about three times the size of the one we have now. It’ll be our new cleanroom at NIST in Boulder. So in the near future I’m going to be working with getting our equipment up there, our present vacuum systems up there, plus we have a lot more vacuum systems coming in that we procured that are in storage right now, so getting those operational and such. So that’s what my immediate future brings. My long-term goals are probably…where I consume a lot of my time now in our cleanroom facility is in our infrastructure. Our cleanroom had a fire back in 1990, and it was rebuilt in three different parts where it initially got built after the fire, and then—maybe it was only two different parts. But anyway, we have a lot of different infrastructure equipment operating in our cleanroom. Of course you have to keep a cleanroom clean, you have to have the right amount of air changes, you have to have the humidity controlled and such. And our equipment is very old—we’re talking 1990 air handlers and such. So we have a lot of problems with that equipment, and so I have to coordinate contractors and such to keep the equipment running correctly, keep the equipment serviced, the filters and such…
HOLLOWAY: DI water supply.
KOCH: Yeah, the DI water supply, the compressed air. One of the things I got real involved with, we have a fire panel where our site was kind of negligent in fire detection, but with the cleanroom we had to follow much stricter guidelines, especially since we had a fire back in 1990. So I’ve been involved in fire detection and notification and suppression, so that’s taken a lot of my time. Also our furnaces and such, other systems we use a lot of gases, dichloro silane and hydrogen and ammonia. And now we’re using chlorine and such, so we had to come up with a toxic gas detection system, so I’m involved with that, keeping that online and working and such. So there’s a lot of information stuff I’m really involved in. So what I’m looking forward to when we move to our new cleanroom is getting away from the infrastructure stuff and working more with the fabrication. Because when I first started working at NIST I started doing a lot of fabrication with wafers and such, making these kinetic inductance bolometers and such—that’s what those things were called with the Wheatstone bridges. And I enjoyed that. But now I’ve got more infrastructure, I’m making sure that stuff is working correct. So I’m looking forward to getting back in fabrication and learning the science of fabrication. Like even yesterday I took a course on sputtering. You know, just getting back into that field and feeling comfortable with it. So that’s what I’m looking forward to for the future.
HOLLOWAY: So how big is the new facility that’s being constructed?
KOCH: Ooh boy, I wish I knew the square footage, but I don't know. [I can figure that out and get that information to you later.]
HOLLOWAY: Right, yeah, we can put it in the edited version. In terms of what you process in these facilities, there are some that are standard materials that you use for your own purposes. Do you actually make devices in these facilities that you sell to external users as secondary standards for calibration?
KOCH: That’s a good question. I know like the voltage standard. I don’t think the US government sells—I’m not sure how that works. But I know with the voltage standard, we came up with the idea, and now a lot of other—you know, like HP, Fluke or whatever, they have their own voltage standard facilities that they use the ideas that we developed and such.
HOLLOWAY: You’re sort of the repository for the primary standard measurement?
KOCH: That I really can’t answer because I’m not involved with that part. Yeah, I don't know the whole dynamics of how the standard type stuff works.
HOLLOWAY: Can you give me some inkling for the difference between NIST Boulder and NIST Gaithersburg?
KOCH: Well, we have different divisions. For instance, NIST Boulder has the Time and Frequency Division that does the time for the United States along with the Naval Observatory. We have a Materials group that studies materials in Boulder. We have our cleanroom, and NIST Gaithersburg also has a cleanroom, and I’m not sure what their cleanroom does. I think a lot of outside research facilities use it. That’s what their plan was, because they really didn’t have a big need for it in Gaithersburg. But our cleanroom, a lot of different groups and divisions, the Materials group and the Time and Frequency group and such use our cleanroom at our Boulder facility. I’d have to look at a NIST internal chart of where the expertise lies, where the standards are divided. Well for instance, the capacitance standard and that type of stuff is still done in NIST Gaithersburg. Probably the resistive standard, the AC/DC is done in Gaithersburg. Sometimes the devices to do the standard work is developed in Boulder and then transferred to Gaithersburg. But like I said, I’m not a real expert on the protocol of this, so you know.
HOLLOWAY: You’re not the manager making the decisions [laughs].
KOCH: No I’m not [laughs]. I really should be more in touch with that, but I’m not. You know, there’s just too much stuff to do. I’m not going to get involved with the dynamics of what NIST does.
HOLLOWAY: Well, they can’t rebuild your pumps for you, so why should you rebuild their infrastructure for them.
KOCH: Exactly, exactly.
HOLLOWAY: We’ve talked about a number of subjects. Would there be any subjects that you’d like to add to the interview?
KOCH: I think what I enjoy about my job, like I said earlier, is the people I work with and such. Even though sometimes it gets old, working on infrastructure and keeping the cleanroom operational, it’s nice because the people I work with appreciate that I do it and I do it with a good job so they can keep making their devices in the cleanroom. So that way, we work really well as a team. When there’s a problem with the infrastructure or something like that, that information comes to me from my coworkers and such, so I can concentrate on getting it working for them so they can still continue making their devices. And vice-versa. You know, when I have a problem with a vacuum system that I can’t fix, I can call out for help and they’ll be there right beside me giving me help. I think that’s what makes our cleanroom and our microcircuit fabrication facility very operational is the teamwork that we do have. And it’s a friendly group, too—we get along with everyone.
HOLLOWAY: The nomination that was put together for the receipt of the award says one of your key assets is your willingness and ability to attack an extraordinary broad range of nonstandard and complex problems from a variety of perspectives. That’s quite a statement.
KOCH: Well yeah, one of the things I like, like being an auto mechanic I learned when a car has a problem, somewhere in there there’s a problem, and you’ve got to figure out where it is. New cars are becoming really complicated and such. And the same with cleanroom facilities. It’s like okay, there’s a problem, we’ve got to deal with it, so we just look at all the different avenues and such. Yeah, that makes it a challenge. You know, that gives it some joy in working, is everything is not…
HOLLOWAY: Standard.
KOCH: Yeah, yeah. It makes it more interesting that way. Like when an air handler breaks, that you just get the tech out there and they add Freon or figure out where the leak is and such. That’s not near as fun as finding a weird problem, like let’s say your air flow is not correct or something like that in your cleanroom. That’s more of a challenge of how are you going to solve that air flow problem, you know.
HOLLOWAY: Now whenever I have a problem with my car and I take it to my mechanic, the symptoms decide to quit appearing when I get it to the mechanic. Is that often the case for your cleanroom facility?
KOCH: No, but… Well, I should say yes and no. I mean one of the things that I’ve been kind of involved with is for our cleanroom facility, the program we use to control the air handlers, the amount of humidification that takes place to keep the humidity correct, is done by this program called Metasys, which is made by Johnson Controls, but we have to program the MedAssist program to work correctly with our air handlers. So a lot of times I’ll have to set up these log files that record data of how the air handlers are working and such, how much water they’re emitting, how much electrical energy they’re adding to the heater elements, and such. So when we do have a problem that does go away, then we can go back and look at the data and figure out what happened and such. That’s just like what you’re saying with your car. You know, we have a log file that shows you the data when the problem happened, and that will help you figure out why it happened.
HOLLOWAY: Yeah, you can read out the computer chip.
KOCH: Right, right. And that’s happening a lot with new cars now. With the newer automobiles, oh I think back in the mid-’80s or so they started having more the computer type log where you get your check engine light on and you can connect your little code reader up to your car and it can tell you what went wrong. Yeah, it’s the same stuff we have for monitoring cleanroom infrastructure and/or even vacuum systems. One of things that always makes me—this goes out to all the users of our vacuum systems back in Boulder, but sometimes people don’t keep the log files. A lot of times they’re a paper log, where you’re doing a deposition or an etch or something like that, and they don’t write down all the parameters. So when a problem starts developing with a vacuum system, it’s nice to be able to go back and look at all the parameters. But a lot of the scientists, the processors, the people processing their substrates or their devices don’t write down all the data that happens. They may write it down in their log book, but they don’t write it down on the log sheet for the equipment. So when you have a problem developing, for instance like a mass flow controller or something like that not giving you the correct reading, you really can’t tell by looking at the data because it’s not written down. That always, to this day, makes me mad that people don’t that [chuckles].
HOLLOWAY: I have actually gone out to Golden and taught some vacuum courses at Colorado School of Mines for the Rocky Mountain Chapter AVS. Have you interacted with that local chapter very much?
KOCH: No I haven’t.
HOLLOWAY: Is this the first meeting that you’ve attended for the AVS?
KOCH: I think I took some classes they had—this was a long time ago—down in Denver. I think it was in Denver. Yeah, this is probably the first time, other than I’ve taken some classes that AVS…yeah it was down in Denver on the Auroria campus? I’m not sure. But that was probably 10, 15 years ago or so.
HOLLOWAY: Well anything else you’d like to add to the interview?
KOCH: Well, I went to a sputtering class yesterday taught by gentleman named Joe Greene, and I have to compliment him, it was kind of invigorating. He explained things real well and such. I’m going to get a defib class tomorrow, and hopefully the instructor for the defib class will do a job like Joe Green. Because that was really invigorating. Now I want to go back and read some more books and such to get a more in-depth understanding of sputtering, because we do so much sputtering at our facility with niobium and different types of materials to make our superconducting devices. So that was real enjoyable. So I’ll probably be involved more with the AVS as time goes by, which will be great.
HOLLOWAY: We would welcome that. Good. Well thank you very much for doing the interview with us.
KOCH: Sure.